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Post by Emcee on Mar 8, 2005 3:48:15 GMT -5
Connor's parents come to visit him for his twentith birthday. But Colleen and Lawrence aren't the only parents to visit him.
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Post by nonbeliever93 on Mar 9, 2005 0:56:53 GMT -5
Wow great episode! I just have one teensy question. Why can Darla visit Connor? Anyways HOLY CRAP fred is there! What the Hell?
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Post by Emcee on Mar 9, 2005 1:54:29 GMT -5
Salome answered that question in the story: the Powers were giving Connor a birthday present.
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Post by MizuRyuu777 on Mar 9, 2005 4:49:11 GMT -5
I am pretty sure Fred is the First... since Fred died and therefore the First can take her form...
nice episode..... thought angel was going to appear... but guess that won't happen for a while... we really need to get angel and connor in a room and have them either fight it out or hash out their differences...
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Post by Emcee on Mar 9, 2005 5:47:57 GMT -5
Yes, Angel and Connor DO need to get into a room and hash (or punch) out their differences. I promise it WILL HAPPEN eventually. I realize I was misleading in my synopsis... But Angelus IS his father too, yes?
And yes, Fred was the First.
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Post by Deacon on Mar 9, 2005 18:38:38 GMT -5
umm... i cant see the ep, My Brothers keeper is still on the Now playing section
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Post by Emcee on Mar 9, 2005 19:27:53 GMT -5
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Post by Wind Fish on Mar 16, 2005 3:30:51 GMT -5
Very kick ass episode. Pretty much what I was hoping for and expecting it to be. I always liked the idea of the First. Not because of any of its plans, but because of the unique way it's able to hurt its target. Especially if it's taking the form of a person that's dead because of you (one way or another). Even if it isn't telling you the complete truth, the reminder isn't any less painful. Previously I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be trapped in hell and needed to be released or if it was just on vacation, but I knew we'd see it sometime. Of course, I'm no closer to actually knowing what Wes is doing or what everyone's role is. So for now I eagerly await the guest appearances by Charisma Carpenter and Mageina Tovah. I hope I'm not falsely getting my hopes up there. I'm slightly worried that there won't be time or that something will happen that won't allow for more First interference. Or that, you know, their schedules are full.  I'm just about to throw away the "it's not really Wes" theories if the First is appearing as Fred to him (a small part of my brain can still rationalize it). Still not convinced he's evil. And I probably won't be until the story specifically tells me otherwise. Though I'm thinking that if he isn't evil but it is him, there's no way he allows himself to survive the end of this. Which is somewhat depressing. Hmmm... I probably should wait until the plot reveals itself before I get bummed out about it. I was waiting for Clarice's second visit. Now I'm just wondering how much smaller this new apartment is going to be and if space will be a problem. The one bad point of the episode was the flashback I had of Dawn screaming "Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!" when Connor said it. Then it got stuck in my head for a couple minutes. Not fun. I hope I'm not a week late in reading the next one like I have been lately. Probably will be though. The preview makes me wonder how much of my theory about Connor and Salome I actually got right. |
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Post by Emcee on Mar 16, 2005 5:58:50 GMT -5
This is the exact reason I'm a fan of the First and exactly why I brought it into TNP. Being able to bring back the dead without *bringing them back* is really nice. When I first conceived the series, I knew the First would have to have at least one visit. It was the best way I could think of to have Connor have to face all of his parents in one fell swoop.
I don't think the First can ever truly be trapped. As long as there is evil, the First exists. There will be furthur explanation later on as to why the First was able to appear to Connor, but it hasn't appeared to Buffy or any of other survivors of S7.
After "Still Life", there is a three-part event that should be quite informative.
If you think I would bring the First into the mix and NOT schedule appearances for Charisma and Mageina, then don't know how much I love angst. *g*
Space is only the first of MANY problems with this new place.
Oh God... I'm SO sorry! Eep! That was NOT the effect I was going for! *hides head in shame*
The new ep will be up in about an hour. I just have to finish off coding.
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Post by Wind Fish on Mar 16, 2005 13:57:26 GMT -5
Now I'm picturing a one room place with water running constantly, no electricity, holes in the floor, and train tracks 5 feet away.
Yep, I see it up now. I'm hoping to get to read it Friday. We'll see. I like to set up 2 hours free so that I know I can read it in one sitting slowly. As for my theory, I'm making a guess from your icon that things went quicker than I thought.
The other thing I wanted to comment on but couldn't find time for last night was Connor asking Salome to erase him from the Rileys' memory. I'm not sure if you intended for it to be an important point, but I thought on it for a while.
I first wondered how long he considered this. Just that day? Has it been on his mind for a while? If it’s the former (and maybe the latter) I don't think he had a chance to think about what he'd really have to do. In order for the Riley's to be truly safe, their existence would have to be erased from Connor's mind too. Would he be able to do that? I'm not so sure. If there were no other options to save them he would, but other than that...
So assuming that Connor and the Riley's forgetting each other kept the latter safe, would I be okay with it? I'm surprised the answer isn't emphatically no. On one hand, while most of their memories of Connor are fake, some aren't and they're all real to them. Connor doesn't have the right to make any type of decision that would change that.
But then I'm thinking if they were truly in immediate danger because of their son, and it was the only way to ensure their safety, from his point of view he'd have to do it, right? And it would essentially be putting things back to the way they were. That's the only reason I'm a little stuck here.
In the end, no matter how it happened, he's their son and no matter what they wouldn't want to forget him. So I guess I'm still against memory wipes. But not dead set against it in this case.
I actually went into thinking about everyone who would have to be affected and everything that would need to be changed. This lead to me wondering what Connor's background story could be that would still fit his second life. Maybe that (a made up) Angel and Darla raised him, but died a year ago?
Then there's the part of me that wishes memory deletions/insertions were never brought up on the shows in the first place. But then that would mean that... yeah, this is all too complicated. I'm going back to my work.
Also, I always like Wisconsin references. That didn't have anything to do with the place Gwen was taken, did it?
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Post by Emcee on Mar 16, 2005 15:02:55 GMT -5
Let me put it this way: It's not as bad as Cordelia's first apartment, but still... DAMN.
Could mean something. Then again, Connor and Salome have kissed before ep 8.
It's important, but not in the way you think.
It was a snap decision. He pretty much only came up with it when Salome came into the room.
I'm not a fan of the memory wipe, but you're right. Connor doesn't have the right to make that kind of decision (just as Angel didn't have the right to do the memory wipe to Connor in the first place). But it's something I think he would consider, since he's putting them in danger and they're *not* really his family so if something happened to them he would feel extra guilty over it.
There was more backstory about Connor's made-up life in the original draft of "Parents Day" that was cut out. Connor's parents believe he was adopted as a baby, and he was raised as their son.
A big part of me wishes that too, but I'm getting some good mileage out of the whole new life thing.
Honestly, it didn't occur to me. Oni was originally from Illinois, but I changed it to Wisconsin at the last minute because I want someone to call her a Cheesehead at some point.
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Post by Wind Fish on Mar 17, 2005 0:16:06 GMT -5
This just reminded me of one of my biggest fears in season 5. I pictured that after Angel pissed them off for some reason, the Senior Partners would undo the mindwipe for everyone but Connor. So then he'd be stuck with a life that doesn't exist for him anymore (he wouldn't get his other memories back). It sounded like something I'd want to watch (mainly to see what Angel would do) and something I'd absolutely hate at the same time since my favorite character would still be gone, but at that point there'd also be no positive result for anyone.
But somewhat applying that to where we stand now, with your story and after "Origin" in general, I would hate if someone else (probably Wes in your story's case) made it so that the Riley's forget Connor while he still remembered them. And this time I mean hate in the sense that I wouldn't want it to happen to him, but I wouldn't mind reading/watching it.
I'm not sure if any of that came close to what you mean, but there you go anyway. And I really didn't write any of that second part as a guess; at this point I'm content to sit back and wait for that three parter you mentioned before I come back with any more of my ideas.
That's what it read like. But with what happened to Jules, I wouldn't have been surprised if he thought about it a little before then too.
Whenever I watch "Origin", at the start of Connor and Angel's last scene where Angel mentions the "special glass", I always envision Connor then tossing something through that window and then yelling something to the affect of, "So are you done ****ing with my mind now?!" as Angel is hiding under his desk. I just can't imagine Connor not being at least somewhat bitter about it, even if he turned out okay because of it.
The "not really his family" part is pretty much the only reason I would give him any benefit of the doubt if he made that decision.
So the question I ask is, "Does Connor know that?" I'm interpreting this that he does, but I'd like to see his reaction if he didn't.
Connor's even more interesting to me the way he ended up. There's just a lot of different ways you can go with his situation. But the idea that Angel would turn Connor into a completely different person to save him... it doesn't make sense to me. My thinking is that he essentially killed one son and gave up another, that wasn't even his, for adoption. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I see it. Then I think of every single person that had to have their memories changed, even just a little, to accommodate this, and I go nuts.
And with how it was done with Dawn... I always end up wondering why the monks couldn't have just made the key into a fruit fly or something that had a ridiculously short life span. Maybe there was a plot related reason and I forgot.
Then there's my dumb interpretation of the shanshu that involves Angel's memory being changed to think he's human. So he wakes up one morning, walks outside to get the paper... and promptly burns up.
And if they mean it as a genuine insult I hope she kicks their ass. Even if it's Connor.
Personal note no one cares about: I own an actual cheesehead.
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Post by Emcee on Mar 17, 2005 1:57:14 GMT -5
Heh. I personally think that would been kind of funny.
He does know it. The deleted scene will be on the "DVD release" of the series, along with a couple others.
I didn't really think of it that way. Frankly, I was too concerned with "Assholes! You wrote my favourite character out of the show!"
It would be poetic justice in a way.
It will probably end up being Lorne or Salome and said with affection.
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Post by Buffy8Fan on Mar 24, 2005 19:32:27 GMT -5
Another really great episode. I was exited when I read the spoiler that all of Connor's parents would be in one episode. When Andrew couldn't see Angel (or was it Angelus, I think it was Angelus) I was a bit disappointed and just as disappointed when Solome couldn't see Holtz. When it was discovered to be the First, I knew the rest of the season (and maybe more) was going to be great because unlike T.V. you can write in any dead person you wish.
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Post by Emcee on Mar 24, 2005 21:12:56 GMT -5
It was Angelus.
That is one of the great things about writing this series. I can do just about anything in the story, because I don't have to wrangle guest stars.
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