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Post by Emcee on Apr 21, 2005 0:07:08 GMT -5
While Connor and his friends struggle to save Wesley, the First Evil decides to play with their minds. Old enemies and friends return, reminding them of past sins.
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Post by Buffy8Fan on Apr 21, 2005 13:56:30 GMT -5
The best episode out of the three parter. When season seven of Buffy was being aired, I always wished for an episode with this many characters that The First changed into and unfortunatly the last scene of Lessons was the closest it ever got.
When it (The First) showed up as Connor I was suprised for only a second because I just figured that with an earlier line in the episode in which Andrew said that it was a good thing Connor wasn't human. It also got me thinking can this show survive without Connor because with the title being what it is, Salome might also fit as the headlining character.
Salome as Vail's kid made me nearly fall out of me chair and had my jaw hanging open in disbelief. I figured she might be hiding something but this never occured to me.
I hope Wesley will be back for a long time as a main or recurring character like Oni. I never realized just how much I missed him until now.
Was it a big deal (an important plotline) that that gang didn't tell Connor about them also seeing The First? And is The First really discoprrealized or whatever or is it still working on them?
Loved the episode and can't wait until the next one. Please update it soon.
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Post by Emcee on Apr 21, 2005 17:55:57 GMT -5
I have the luxury of not having to ACTUALLY gather all of those guest stars. So I could have the First turn into anyone I want.
Salome as the main character, huh? As much as I adore the girl, I don't know if she could headline the show without Connor. Connor is the glue that holds all of the characters together... Besides, she's crazy about the guy.
I never actually said Salome was Vail's kid. She just has the same last name as him. But, hmm... That IS an interesting theory.
I love Wesley and (for the foreseeable future) he will be hanging around like Oni and Lorne.
It's not so much an important plotline that the gang didn't tell Connor about seeing the First... But it IS an important plotline that they didn't tell him what the First told them.
The First is officially spanked. It won't be showing up for a least the rest of the season.
Glad you liked the episode.
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Post by Deacon on Apr 21, 2005 19:22:03 GMT -5
woah! thats all I can say! Woah!
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Post by Wind Fish on Apr 23, 2005 3:05:31 GMT -5
Wahoo! (See, I say it! ;D)
I liked the ending. Are we going to get other chances to see how that spell works? I'm picturing it, at least in part, being kind of like the reverse of what Spike had for a while in Season 5.
After the last episode, and being told that Salome and Azriel were indeed not cousins, I was thinking that maybe they were married at one point or something. Considering she's always talking about crappy relationships she's had, I figured it could fit.
But yeah, I had come to the same conclusion as BuffyFan after this episode. Now after reading this thread... I don't know what I think anymore. And after the conclusion I somehow came to with Wesley, I think I'm better off just waiting for the story to play itself out.
I liked the First appering as Connor. I was hoping that at some point it would get the chance to make the rounds as him to everyone seperately, actually. Ah well, it did well enough.
This mind-wipe business has me enthralled. I'll probably say this at the end of every episode it's mentioned in until the end of the season, but I am extremely curious to see how you decide to handle it.
EDIT: Couple of other thoughts...
So Dana's dead, huh? I knew it was bad news seeing Navi Rawat in the credits. Oh well.
Also, it was dumb of Connor to let the First know it had slipped like that. I really thought that would bite the group in the ass much more than it did.
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Post by Emcee on Apr 23, 2005 6:18:34 GMT -5
Wahoo! (See, I say it! ;D) You're a funny guy. The spell will mostly manifest in the group trying to break it. Salome and Azriel as married... Hmmm... Interesting theory. But don't you think Sal is a little young to have an ex-husband (who she's been trying to kill for ten years)? I would have liked that too. The thing is, I really don't think the First is that interesting as a bad guy. One, two times, it works all right. After that it gets a little repetitive because the First can't really do anything except talk trash. I will keep TEASING you with that damn mind-wipe. Believe me, the mind-wipe is one of my worst enemies. But it DOES have it's advantages... Yep. As much as I like Dana, for Andrew's story arc, having a suicide of a Slayer on his conscience worked really well. Dana made the most sense. Well, Connor's not exactly bright, now is he? I could have had more trouble... But then there would be dead bodies. |
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Post by Wind Fish on Apr 23, 2005 11:35:44 GMT -5
I meant to say that maybe they were serious for a while. I don't know, the thought popped into my head quickly. And honestly, I didn't think on it much.
It's been 10 years? I forgot it was that long. I think I need to start writing these details down.
Yeah, I agree. I was looking forward to this episode mainly because it was going to be the first time for Salome and Jaime.
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Post by Buffy8Fan on Apr 24, 2005 20:53:21 GMT -5
After I posted my original thread about this episode, I thought about another question that just kept on bugging me. When The First turned into Connor was it because he is partly demon (at least that is the way I think I understand it) or does it have something to do with what happened when Angel originally took Connor's memories away from him? The way that scene was filmed made it look as if Angel had to slit Connor's throat to change his memories. I am curious on this matter.
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Post by Emcee on Apr 24, 2005 23:23:22 GMT -5
According to Tim Minear, Angel did indeed kill Connor to change his memories. So that is why the First is able to materialize as Connor.
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Post by Buffy8Fan on Apr 25, 2005 14:05:19 GMT -5
Thank you for clearing that up. You really have no idea how much that was starting to bother me.
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Post by Wind Fish on Apr 25, 2005 18:14:32 GMT -5
I just wanted to say that all the information about Vail's past completely slipped my mind when I read this episode. He's over a thousand years old, right? And Salome said she's in her mid-twenties? Yeah, I really do need to write this stuff down and review it before I come to conclusions.
Do we have an age for Azriel? Depending on the answer, I may be posting in the speculation area soon.
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Post by Emcee on Apr 26, 2005 0:52:28 GMT -5
Just to explain a little bit of Nyazian aging:
Nyazians age pretty much the same as humans, albeit slightly slower, until about the age of 25. And then development arrests and they age *much* slower. Their age is directly linked to their powers. Depending on how powerful they are, the slower they age.
Cyvus Vail is 1,500. He is the most powerful Nyazian demon EVER, so he's lived a lot longer than most of them. His lifespan is unnatural even to them.
Mistress Meerna around 150.
Azriel is 140.
Salome is the YOUNGEST Nyazian demon still living, at only 25.
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Post by Wind Fish on Apr 26, 2005 11:21:42 GMT -5
There's another thing I thought of. While not exactly the same, is the Connor/Salome relationship meant to be, on some level anyway, a parallel to Angel/Buffy? The comparison just struck me in the sense that one, if things go as planned, will long out live the other. And there could be similar long-term issues that come up sometime down the road.
I know its really early here so they're not thinking about any of that, and maybe even won't throughout the length of the series (assuming they stay together), but it just hit me as another situation Connor got himself into that's similar to his Dad.
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Post by Emcee on Apr 26, 2005 12:13:17 GMT -5
While I do like paralleling Connor and Angel, the Connor/Salome relationship was not meant to be any sort of mirror of Buffy/Angel.
Also, who says CONNOR's aging is at all normal? We know he's not human. His parents were immortal. And we don't actually know EXACTLY how long he was in Quortoth.... (just gotta add fuel to the fire).
I don't think Buffy and Angel's issues really came from the aging. I think it more came from the fact they were in different places. Salome and Connor are on a much more even playing field.
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Post by Wind Fish on Apr 26, 2005 15:44:04 GMT -5
Well, Holtz did look like he had aged about 168 years...
Buffy/Angel was more complicated than I made it out to be in my post, but I wanted to point out the easier issues that I thought might apply to Connor/Salome (age and children being the two I thought of off hand). Whether they do or will... I guess I don't know. Still, I thought the comparison was interesting.
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