Holtz' plan

[Emcee]

I think this is an apt first question, considering Connor is the main focus of this forum.

I was watching A New World/Benediction/Tomorrow with my mother yesterday.

I was thinking... Did Holtz actually want Justine to tell Connor that Angelus had killed him, or did Justine come up with that on her own? Angel believed that Holtz had set it up, but I actually didn't see any evidence of that within the episodes.

[Buffy8Fan]

My personal opinion is that Justine came up with the plan all by herself. However all the threads I read and all the fans I talk to seem to think that Holltz wanted Justine to tell Connor that Angelus had killed him. I don't belive that and actually think Holtz wanted Angel to have Connor. I also think however, that Joss Whedon purposly set the storyline up that way so the fans would argue and debate the issue.

[Wind Fish]

I always thought that Holtz's plan was obvious from mid-Benediction on, but god knows I see what I want sometimes.

Keep in mind my point of view about Holtz is that he came to love Connor, but still hated Angel(us) just as much, if not more. Also, I haven't seen the episode in a while so I'm just going by hazy memory.

First Holtz says that he knew Connor wouldn't be able to kill Angel, that Connor only wanted to see him, which doesn't make Connor very happy. Holtz then says Connor needs to learn from Angel so he doesn't become him. I'm thinking this is all set up so that Holtz can get a gauge on how Connor really feels about his father.

Holtz ends up seeing Connor being all buddy like with Angel. Angel having his son back? Not what Holtz wants, for a couple different reasons, so he at the very least needs to prevent that.

The whole conversation Holtz has with Connor afterwards served to remind Connor of who he and his true parents are (to piss him off a little), but also to reinforce the idea that Holtz thinks he has Connor's best interests in mind (which he thought he did).

From this point on, either Holtz knew Angel and his son very well, or he just got really lucky.

Now, Justine discovering Holtz was a bonus, I don't think he was ever planning on involving her. But a couple of his lines in their conversation are important to me. His first, paraphrased, "Love is much more powerful than hate" made me think that Holtz has discovered that Connor won't kill Angelus out of hate for him, but he would out of love for Holtz. The other line, something like, "Now there's one more thing I need you to do" and their scene in the alley where Holtz commands her to stab him twice makes me believe he had planned on framing a vampire.

Did Holtz count on Angel making a visit? I'm thinking Holtz figured either Connor would mention him or that Angel would be smart enough to figure it out. And once Angel does show up, Holtz has to know Connor would smell Angel either at the motel or on his body. I know he didn't count on Gunn and Fred's idiocy, they just moved things along a little faster.

Now you may ask, "How can you use the 'love is more powerful than hate argument' if you think Holtz may have still hated Angelus more than he loved Connor?" Well, I always thought that he still had Connor's best interests in mind the whole time. He doesn't want Angel to harm Connor (soul or not, Holtz still sees the demon that slaughtered his family), so he has to make sure Connor is the first one to act. Getting his final revenge in the process? Gravy.

I also gotta say, I love Holtz's final letter. That thing is filled with double meanings.

Feel free to pick all that apart. Or ask me to explain anything I didn't state clearly.

(And Justine doesn't tell Connor anything, does she? I thought Connor comes to the Angelus conclusion on his own. She just happened to be there when Connor discovered the body.)

[Emcee]

No. Justine says "This didn't have to happen. Your father was gonna leave. He just wanted to talk to Angelus (....) Angelus won. He could have just walked away."

Not that Connor really needed to be convinced.

But here's the thing... How would Holtz have known that Connor would have come to see him? Connor only comes because he overhears Fred and Gunn. If he hadn't run away from them, he would have been able to see Angel and read the letter from Holtz. Was Holtz banking on Connor trying to look for him and finding his dead body?

I think if it WAS a plan, Holtz left way too much up to chance.

[Wind Fish]

No. Justine says "This didn't have to happen. Your father was gonna leave. He just wanted to talk to Angelus (....) Angelus won. He could have just walked away.

What I remember is that at the end of Benediction Connor says "Angelus" (with a nice sick little smile of comprehension right before he says it) without any prompt from Justine. Justine then says the above in Tomorrow. I just checked transcripts and they confirm that. I'll have to check the episodes later for actual proof.

But here's the thing... How would Holtz have known that Connor would have come to see him? Connor only comes because he overhears Fred and Gunn. If he hadn't run away from them, he would have been able to see Angel and read the letter from Holtz. Was Holtz banking on Connor trying to look for him and finding his dead body?

The only thing I see left up to chance is that Holtz has to hope Connor isn't constantly in Angel's presense from the time he leaves the motel to the time he goes back.

I don't think it's a reach to expect Connor to go back to their motel. I mean, he's not just gonna abandon Holtz forever. I think it's realistic to think that once Connor calmed down a bit, he would have went back to talk to Holtz again. He didn't have to think there was any danger to do so.

It only helps that Angel shows up at the motel and that Fred and Gunn give it away. The next time Connor goes to the motel, he still could have found the letter and he still could have found a dead body with two holes in his neck. He just wouldn't have expected them.

[Emcee]

thewindfish said:

What I remember is that at the end of Benediction Connor says "Angelus" (with a nice sick little smile of comprehension right before he says it)

You know, I think that nice sick little smile is really hot.

...

Okay, so I have issues! I am aware of that.

without any prompt from Justine. Justine then says the above in Tomorrow. I just checked transcripts and they confirm that. I'll have to check the episodes later for actual proof.

Okay, so Justine was just sort of feeding the lie.

But really, when you think about it, did Connor REALLY come to that crazy a conclusion? Angel is a VAMPIRE. He was pissed off at Holtz. He had Fred and Gunn distract Connor while he went to confront Holtz. You know, I probably would have come to the same conclusion.

But if Connor hadn't found out about Angel going to see Holtz, would he have come to the Angelus conclusion right away? Or might he have thought that Holtz was just confronted by a random vampire?

It only helps that Angel shows up at the motel and that Fred and Gunn give it away. The next time Connor goes to the motel, he still could have found the letter and he still could have found a dead body with two holes in his neck. He just wouldn't have expected them.

Like I said above, I don't know if Connor would have immediately suspected Angelus had he not found out about Angel going to see Holtz from Fred and Gunn. If he had just found the letter at the motel and the dead body, he probably would have thought:

(1) Holtz couldn't live without Connor/Steven so he got himself involved in a fight he knew he couldn't win.
(2) While Holtz was leaving he was jumped by a vampire.

I don't know if he would have immediately thought "Angelus".

[Wind Fish]

But really, when you think about it, did Connor REALLY come to that crazy a conclusion? Angel is a VAMPIRE. He was pissed off at Holtz. He had Fred and Gunn distract Connor while he went to confront Holtz. You know, I probably would have come to the same conclusion.

I think he came to an extremely logical conclusion. My feelings on what post-Origin Connor thinks of Angel's ocean voyage are based in part on what Connor knew at the time it happened, and I don't think he can blame himself for the actions he took. But that's something for another thread.

I don't know if he would have immediately thought "Angelus".

This seems to be where we disagree.

Holtz had spent anywhere from 16 to 4,792 years with the kid. I'm giving Holtz the benefit of the doubt, whether I should or not, that he had a good handle on how Connor's mind works. Holtz very recently gave him a reminder who his parents are, what they did. Connor knows (correctly or not) that he shouldn't be trusting Angelus. He doesn't want to. But he starts to, even though it goes against everything he was ever taught.

I think if Connor finds Holtz dead by vampire bite, he'd think immediately of why he wasn't around to help Holtz (the suggestion that Connor's bonding moment with his father meant something) and blame himself. He'd want to lash out at someone. He'd think of the one vampire he's been drilled to hate, if only to give himself reason to go back to the easiest way of thinking, which is "Angelus is evil." If only to make himself feel more loyal to the only person he ever knew, who he recently let down.

Now, let's say I'm right and Angel still ends up in the ocean. Without the evidence we're throwing out, after the deed is done Connor might start replaying events in his head and come to the conclusion that he made the wrong decision. But in that initial moment of grief, I'm betting Connor doesn't care about the truth. He'd just need to stop the warring thoughts that are in his head. And I'm banking on Holtz knowing that.


And I guess I'm confused on how the sequence of events occurred if the whole thing wasn't Holtz's plan. I don't think I ever saw anyone suggest it was Justine's idea before, and I really can't picture any way the events fit if Holtz hadn't suggested it or been in on it at least. So if anyone thinks my version is incorrect, I'd like to hear yours.

Also, that letter becomes much less kick ass if it wasn't Holtz's plan, so I really want to believe it was.


EDIT: Just for my own benefit, I want to sum up the current questions being debated.

1. Whose idea was it to frame Angelus, if it was in fact anyone's?
2. If it was Holtz's idea, was his plan relying too much on chance?

Am I missing anything?

And BuffyFan, if you get the chance I'd really like to hear your point of view in detail. I'm definitely interested in it.

[Buffy8Fan]

First, I stand by my original thought that Joss Whedon purposly set the storyline up so fans would argue and debate this issue.
When thewidfish asked for my detailed POV it made me think hard because I also haven't seen these episodes in a long time. I have ever season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer on DVD but that took me years to do with the money I had so Angel on DVD will most likely never happen.
I did however go to the site on my favorites page (one of the few besides this one) and look up and read the transcripts for those episodes.
Yes I do believe Holtz wanted revenge when he came back from Quartoth originally. But I still do not believe that he wanted Justine to tell Connor Angelus killed him. This change in heart I believe was gradual (didn't spell that right), but happened mostly when he saw them bonding. As everyone said, Holz did love Connor and love is more poweful than hate which is fortunately proven in the series finale. I believe that Holz couldn't bear to see Connor with Angel (kind of a Giles season 3 thing) so he asked Justine to kill him. justine assumed that Holtz was still intent on revenge.
However this is my opinion and as I have said, I know for a fact I could be wrong but I am pretty sure JossWhedon meant for people like us to argue about it. In fact he probably hoped we would.

[Wind Fish]

Yeah, I'm not going to say you're wrong for thinking the way you do. I just don't think I ever saw anyone say that Holtz wanted Angel to have Connor before, so I wanted to hear why you came to that conclusion. I see where you're coming from now.

I have to say though, if I personally believed that, I'd feel extremely bad for Holtz. Man, there's a good chance the kid hates him now. And it'd be (in part) because of a huge misunderstanding.

I have no problem believing the whole thing was left open for fans to discuss. I love it when things are left up for interpretation.


Oh, for future reference if you double post like that again and want to hide the evidence, there's a 'delete' button at the top right of each of your posts that you can use if you want. At least I think you can. I never actually checked to see if non-mods can delete their posts.

[Xandrew]

Off topic: my favourite Connor smile is right after he finds out cordy's part demon and before the glowyness

On Topic: He asks her to stab him, he reminds her that she promised to do whatever he asked

[Buffy8Fan]

Every post I have made until now has been without the DVD's and only a little with the transcripts. The only Angel transcript I don't have now is season five and as of now I don't know when I'll get that.

I am currently watching season six and three of Buffy and Angel so this update done by Xandrew couldn't have come at a better time.

When I get to the end I will see if my theory still stands because as of right now I am still sticking with the theory in my above replies.

[Anna]

I totally agree with Wind Fish!! I think the showmaker´s mend it that way as well. Because I remember Tim Minnear pretty much gave the same commentary on the episode/season.

[Matt]

I thought Windfish, Emcee, Xandrew, and Buffy fan all had good points about Holtz and Justine's plan. I still think that Holtz was the main brain behind the whole scheme but I'm sure Justine had her own imput seeing as how she hated vampires herself. I was actually expecting her to be the returning villain that was hinted at in the Fissures spoiler.

By the way, is Justine going to be making an appearance on TNP? After all, she was a part of Connor's past with Holtz.

[Emcee]

I've considered it. It's still in consideration.