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Post by Wind Fish on May 17, 2005 15:37:44 GMT -5
Today has been really boring so I’ve started discussion topics at various places. I figured, why discriminate against this board?
There are a decent number of fans out there that are disappointed that there was never a concrete reason given for Angel's return trip from hell. It was left up to the fans to create their own and there are a lot of them out there. The Powers that Be, the First Evil, the Senior Partners, and Jasmine are popular culprits. Other theories revolve around the idea that he had no outside help.
So the question I ask is, who was responsible and/or what was the reason for Angel's escape from hell?
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Post by Emcee on May 17, 2005 16:28:54 GMT -5
I've always (well, since S4) felt that Angel's return from Hell was courtesy of Jasmine.
Or, to be more exactly, I believe that Jasmine, TPTB and the FE chill up in the Higher Plane (kinda like Mount Olympus) and they go "Hey, let's pull Angelus out of Hell for the fun of it." and then Jasmine goes, "Hmm... I could use this to my advantage. It's boring up here!"
But then, I've got a fucked up mind.
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Post by Wind Fish on May 17, 2005 19:03:48 GMT -5
Well, I always figured that Angel thought he deserved the punishment and whoever was in charge down there finally realized that it'd be more of a torture for him to have to interact with people again.
No, I'm not being sarcastic.
If someone forced me to think of a storyline related reason, I liked Jasmine too. One theory I read actually tied it to the First Evil's plan in Buffy S3. While TFE wanted Buffy dead too, it didn't mind Angel frying himself because then Jasmine wouldn't be making an appearance. What kind of ultimate evil wants humanity feeling peace and happiness? Or maybe it just didn't want someone eating/enslaving everyone when it had plans of it own.
But I like my theory better.
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Post by Buffy8Fan on May 18, 2005 13:15:28 GMT -5
It was the First Evil. In the episode Ammend (the season three Christmas episode) Angel tells this to Buffy while waiting for the sun to come up and yes Buffy in the same episode and same scene says that it is only his theory and could be right or wrong with the phrase, "...takes credit for bringing you back..." it is Joss Whedon and the rest of the writers way of saying this is our theory and anyone who disagrees can (I don't want to sound like a broken record, but...) fight about it.
I disagree with the it's Jasmine theory because Jasmine is evil and The First Evil is the reason Jasmine (evil like Jasmine) exist. The First Evil has that kind of power while Jasmine doesn't.
I do believe Jasmine used it to her advantage because an Angel episode and scene used that to their advantage, but I have to disagree with The Powers That Be having a part in it. Angel died a heroes death, even if it was because of Angelus's actions. They didn't bring back Doyle so Angel...No!!!
As for the windfish's theory, I don't think there can be any way to go for or against that unless it is what you think and no offense I don't because when I think of Buffy I prefer to not think of The Powers That Be. They were never mentioned until the Angel Series.
Now since the character of Jasmine has been brought up I have a question that has always bugged me. Why did Jasmine inside Cordelia do all of these horible things only to come out and create world peace? It makes no sense. Why not create world peace from inside Cordelia to show that she isn't a threat?
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Post by Deacon on May 18, 2005 16:07:35 GMT -5
no, it was clearly not the First. pretended to be responsible to drive Angel to killing the Slayer who would be a threat to it or at least kill himself since the First knew he had an important part to play against it (though it really just ended up being him giving the amulet).
I believe it was the PTB. Jasmine needed him to be back in the world so she could bring herself into the world.
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Post by Emcee on May 18, 2005 17:48:48 GMT -5
*puts mod hat on*
We don't know what it clearly was. The First could very well have been telling the truth. We don't actually know.
No definitive statements. We just work theories.
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Post by Wind Fish on May 19, 2005 2:13:37 GMT -5
Aw, no Senior Partners love? They want a vampire with a soul. Vampire with a soul is chillin' down in hell. It's the perfect match! No? Alright.
Bah, the First Evil probably brought Angel back because it wanted to sell his dust on eBay. What, that's insane? Fine! Well... one could argue, if they wanted, that the First thought with Angel deciding to off himself, meaning Buffy would lose him again, that the Slayer would do something drastic in grief that may lead to her death, or at least removing herself from the picture somehow. That could be why the First wouldn't be too pissed that Angel's just going out of the picture quietly immediately after it brought him back in.
Was Jasmine really evil? Maybe her real goal was to bring peace to the world. She did say to Angel, "I murdered thousands to save billions."
That fits with the whole rain of fire thing and all that too, I guess. She needed to make sure she was born, that Angel and company wouldn't get suspicious of Cordy's rapidly growing belly and do something about it, so she made sure they were distracted by something else and wouldn't notice. Everyone who died was just collateral damage.
And she couldn't just create world peace from inside Cordy because she didn’t have that kind of power while she wasn't in her true(ish) form. It's also even possible that the spell Connor helped her do in "Inside Out" was what unleashed Jasmine's true power (not just allowing her to be born), although I just thought of that right now and maybe that doesn't make sense.
I've also heard the idea that she brought out permanent midnight to lure demons to LA so they could be easier to find and kill later. Makes some sense if she really planned to eliminate evil.
Of course, it's probably just as easy (easier, perhaps) to believe that Jasmine was lying her ass off the whole time and that she was just (power) hungry.
But I think everything's much more interesting if she wasn't evil herself, just misguided. It's sort of a parallel to Connor throughout seasons 3 and 4, in that sense.
And that's not even to say that if her goal was initially noble that she wasn't starting to let her power go to her head or that she wouldn't change her mind about things after a while.
But with regards to Angel, I still like my theory, even if it is horribly stupid and anti-climatic. I mean, with all the things Angel is supposed to do, with all the things the people who are now connected to him are supposed to do (Connor, for example), the only reason they're around to do it is because some demon in hell got sick of having Mr. Brood around? That's funny!
...
Stop looking at me like that!
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Post by Emcee on May 19, 2005 2:25:39 GMT -5
I actually think Jasmine's belief was to be the "big fish in the little pond".
She did a lot of HORRIBLE things to get down to Earth. And when she was there, what did she immediately start doing? She was worshipped by people. And she was really passive-aggressive in saying, "You want peace? Worship me." ("You don't have to do anything except love each other... Though a temple would be nice.")
The second Jasmine's plan failed, she decided to destroy the world.
I think she was the Power that Everyone Else Picked On, so she decided to go to Earth where everyone would be impressed with her powers.
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Post by thedestroyer12 on Jul 6, 2005 21:16:42 GMT -5
I actually thought the reason Angel came back was, to bring forth Jasmine. Since we found out she was alive. By her coming, she needed Angel to do the job, he was suppose to do. Which was to bring forth Connor. So I would think, Jasmine and tptb brought him back. For Angel and Darla to make Connor, and for Connor and Cordy to bring Jasmine.
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Post by Xandrew on Mar 18, 2006 22:22:07 GMT -5
I think it was the nyazian elders, who needed Angel on our plain to father Connor
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Post by Xandrew on Mar 19, 2006 1:40:54 GMT -5
wow, I've just thought of something that was posted nearly half a year ago without reading, ugh
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Post by nemesis on Oct 19, 2006 16:03:01 GMT -5
I like to believe another un-named champion let Angel out. For some reason we've yet to find out. Since time moves differently in other dimensions it could be Connor's great great Grandchild who goes 'oh yeah better go release Angel so I can be born'. But thats just fluff, I don't want to think we already know all the big players.
It could have been the First I suppose, Angel after all did end world peace, yay for evil. Also I don't think Jasmine is responsible for Connor's birth, I have to believe that was a manipulative lie. Maybe Angel did earn Connor in the trials but giving Jasmine credit for Connor's birth leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
All in all, these unanswered questions....all the more reasons for movies...Joss.
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